Some meta about content notes, podfic, and kink negotiation!

[sophinisba]

Here are some thoughts I've been meaning to write up about content notes, podfic, and kink negotiation since making a podfic of thingswithwings's story "monster" earlier this summer. This post has spoilers for that fic and, in a separate paragraph that I've marked off, talks obliquely about the end of Avengers: Endgame.

Since this post is pretty rambly and personal let me start off with a summary: I think content notes sometimes work a lot like kink negotiation, which I love, and I found that to be especially powerful as I was making this podfic.



So there are lots of different ways of making podfic and lots of things one can include. Mine are usually pretty minimalist –– mainly out of laziness and shyness, I'd say. Although I tried being more ambitious for a few years, these days I almost never include music or sound effects. I love listening to other people's freetalk or reader's notes at the end of a recording, but I've only ever made them a few times. Also, at the beginning of a recording, some people will give a lot of information, including AO3 tags and summary. My intros tend to be shorter: Title, fandom, author, reader, usually pairing or main characters, rating, and sometimes content notes.

As far as I can tell I've always done content notes for things I think could be upsetting, especially consent issues. The second podfic I ever posted was noncon and I couldn't remember so I just went back to check and yes, I did say so in the intro, though at the time I called it a "warning". I switched to saying "contains" or just explaining what the thing was a few years back, most likely because thingswithwings made a post that I can't find now about why "content notes" was a better and less judgy term and I mostly agreed.

(In general I've been influenced a lot by her thoughts about how we talk about kinks and potential triggers and fanworks and well everything over the years, in posts such as this one from 2010 about shifts in how people write content notes and this one from 2015 about "I don't like X but" comments. I also have two older podfic meta posts on my mind here, general_jinjur's from 2010 about podfic and bodies and intimacy" and my own from 2011 about podfic and kink_bingo –– especially the section labeled "Podfic is kinda kinky".)

So then it was interesting to be starting off recording this fic of hers that I love and where 1) the content is super intense and 2) the consent issues are honestly pretty hard to explain without spoiling the story. With written text there are ways of hiding a spoilery note so people can choose whether to read it, but with a podfic people can't just skip over your intro. And I probably felt a little extra nervous with this one, knowing that it was likely thingswithwings herself would end up listening to the podfic and yes, she's always been really supportive of my podfics but also she has all these strong and smart opinions about content notes!

I wrote out a draft of the intro (I always do, I am not an improviser!) and recorded it, and then recorded and edited the whole podfic, and then realized the intro I'd recorded was more spoilery than I wanted it to be (and more so than the author's original intro content note), so then I rewrote it and rerecorded, and this is what I ended up with:

This fic is rated explicit, and listen, it's really intense. It narrates a scene of simulated interrogation, rape, and torture. The thing is, the torture is real, but it's consuensual, but it happens in a context that makes consent complicated.

If that sounds iffy to you, you might want to hit pause and take another look at tags. Thingswithwings has also provided a useful spoilery explanation as an endnote to the fic posting.

Wanna keep going? 'Cause I sure do, I fucking love this story. Here it is.

The trickiest part was that first paragraph, like I said, trying to figure out how to balance useful information that would help people decide if it was a good idea to listen but also not spoiling. But this post is more about the other two paragraphs, because I was also thinking about how to put that information out there without saying it was bad, which could make a listener feel bad. I've occasionally seen/heard content notes along the lines of "Please do not read/listen if X is a trigger for you", and I know that comes from a place of love but I can perceive the tone as disapproving and the phrasing as imperious. Like, I don't have triggers, but I get to decide whether to listen or not, and someone who has triggers also gets to decide. That is why I liked the idea of just offering the option of pausing to get more information and decide.

And then the last line of the intro is me saying, "Hey, just in case you thought I might be judging you for liking those things I just mentioned, I'm totally not! I'm the one who decided to make the podfic! I'm right there with you!" To be honest that last line is also about me trying to seduce the listener into coming with me on this adventure!

And what I realized, the more I thought about that intro, is that what I do there really parallels what Bruce is doing within the fic, and what other characters do in many of my other favorite kink fics, which is to propose something that might be intense and painful and then give their partner the option of continuing or not (but hoping they will continue!).

Like, apart from the kidnapping/interrogation and everything the fic is really about Bruce the sadist offering to hurt Tony, indicating what he's planning to do, and repeatedly reminding him he can say no, and about Tony amazing Bruce by repeatedly telling him to keep going, to keep hurting him. (It's so great, ahhhhh.) And I think this parallel is especially powerful with this particular story because it has this unusual sadist POV, where the narrator says Bruce has tried in the past to pretend what he and Tony did together was about Tony wanting to get hurt. And like, Tony does want to get hurt, but also Bruce wants to hurt him. It made me think about how ... I guess I wouldn't say I want to hurt my listeners but I want them to have an intense experience thinking about pain, and I'd guess thingswithwings wants the same for her readers.

I was also thinking about all of this in terms of trust and care. Another thing that happens in this fic is that the bad guys have injured Tony as they were kidnapping him, and this makes Bruce really angry, even as he's preparing to cause Tony way more pain the bad guys have: "Bruce wants very badly to hulk out just thinking about the fact that someone else, some random ex-soldier, could mark Tony so carelessly and so unthinkingly. Could make him feel pain without meaning it or wanting it." In contrast, everything Bruce does to Tony is purposeful, and (more or less!) consensual and careful, in a way that Bruce knows won't cause permanent damage. And Tony isn't going to consent to being hit and burned and cut by random strangers but he wants it from Bruce because he trusts him and cares for him (and because they're gonna outsmart the bad guys but that's also related to the trust and the history they have together ahhhhh). The first line of the fic is Bruce saying "It has to be me."

I kind of want to say it had to be thingswithwings for me to read a fic with those tags and summary, though it's possible I'd be exaggerating a little. I'm nervous to write this next part because I don't want to get into "I don't like X but" commentary, but whatever okay I'm gonna write this now. So like, a few weeks before I came across this fic, I signed up for justmarriedexchange and, as I usually do in exchanges, put torture/interrogation on my do-not-want list. This is because I get upset when I see torture presented as an effective and justifiable means of getting important information, something that happens more often on TV and in movies but also occasionally in fanfic. And that's not really what happens in "monster", but enough elements are there that I felt nervous and a little uncomfortable even as I was reading (the first time), and also I've never been especially into knifeplay and there were some other parts of it I wasn't sure I wanted to read. So if I if I saw those tags on a fic by a stranger I might well not have clicked through (despite the desperate desire for Tony whump that has consumed much of my summer). The next time I sign up for an exchange, knowing I could be assigned to anybody and that it'll be super awkward if I don't like what they make, I'll probably use the same DNWs. But already knowing and trusting thingswithwings as an author and as a person meant I only hesitated a little before starting to read this. And the thoughtful content notes she had written were in a way like her offering a hand at the beginning of the fic, saying, hey, I know this is scary but I'm gonna get you through it and take care of you, and I think you might enjoy it.

And so it was! And although I'm not as famous myself and there aren't nearly as many people who listen to podfic as read fic in general, I also know that there are people who are fans of my way of reading and who trust me to choose good fics to podfic. So I feel like I'm also offering a hand and inviting them to try something scary (though for other listeners it's not scary at all). And even for people who don't have previous experience with us as creators, the content notes are a way of signaling to readers/listeners that we're not going to hurt them carelessly or unthinkingly. I would be more nervous about being hurt by a fic that didn't have any content notes. Or, for that matter, by a random episode of Torchwood or Merlin or say a movie like Avengers: Endgame.

ETA Aug. 9 Another way of thinking about this that I didn't quite manage to articulate when I wrote the post yesterday is that as a fanfic reader I am very accustomed to identifying with the sub and/or masochist character in a kinky fic, and also with the hurt character in hurt/comfort, with whoever is giving up control and having things done to them, and being taken care of. That POV is more common but also like, even if I'm reading something with a dom or caretaker's POV I'm more likely to think "Oh that's so good of them, I want to be taken care of like that" rather than "I want to do that".

So I want to say that this experience is shifting something for me. It's not that I haven't enjoyed like, orchestrating hurt or discomfort or other intense feelings for my readers or listeners before, that's been important for me since the first fic I wrote, more than 14 years ago now (!). But I had not thought of that as a kind of caring sadism before, had not thought of myself in that way, and I'm enjoying that new perspective. /ETA

So it was making this podfic that's so much about kink and communication that made this clear to me, but since then I've also been paying attention to the trust that goes into the relationship between fanwork creator and consumer in general, and the intimacy of podfic in particular, the way it can bring up feelings that are hard to get away from but also one can feel very well cared for when one is being read to.

A paragraph that talks about death and about Avengers: Endgame
Earlier today I posted a podfic of If the Bough Breaks (Someone Will Catch You), a gen fic by Meatball42 set at the end of Endgame, and I used the "Grief/Mourning" and "Canonical Character Death" on the AO3 posting, but in the recording itself I just said "This story takes place at the end of Avengers: Endgame," and the characters' names, but if you know that movie you know that this is likely to be a lot. Idk, to me that intro felt like enough of a warning. You can tell me I'm bullshitting but I seriously feel like the way my voice goes soft on the word "Endgame" is me saying "Hey, friend, I bet you downloaded this podfic because you're sad about that thing that happened in Endgame. I am also sad and so are the characters in this fic, and maybe also you or I are sad about what happened to a friend or a parent or a mentor. Let's spend 12 minutes being sad together."

And to me this is also a gesture of love, and is also a way of offering to hurt someone, but in a way that I think they might like, and this makes me very tender and happy.

Comments

[sasha_feather]

This is so insightful and thoughtful.

But already knowing and trusting thingswithwings as an author and as a person meant I only hesitated a little before starting to read this. And the thoughtful content notes she had written were in a way like her offering a hand at the beginning of the fic, saying, hey, I know this is scary but I'm gonna get you through it and take care of you, and I think you might enjoy it.


That's it! That's it exactly.

[sophinisba]

It is so nice to feel cared for! But I think a fun thing about making podfic is that you get to go from being the reader who's being led along the way to the reader who's leading other people along the way. Switching, I guess! :D

[longwhitecoats]

Hi! I found this post through sasha_feather. I just wanted to say thank you for writing this; it's lovely & thorough & deals with complex feelings very deftly. I record podfic sometimes & this meta spoke to me a lot. Thank you!

[sophinisba]

Hello! Thank you for reading and for saying this! I'm afraid I have not articulated all the things I want to say but this was a good start. :)

[alwaystheocean]

This is a great post, thank you so much for sharing it!

[sophinisba]

Yay, thank you for reading!

[claudia603]

Random comment that has nothing to do with your post: I'm on the way to Minneapolis today! :) Last time I was there, was that famous New Year's Eve when it was below zero and you made me run outside! :D :D :D Naw, that was a really fun trip!

[sophinisba]

Man, B went to Minneapolis a couple weeks ago but I haven't been since this past December and I miss it! I'm excited to go back though for the podfication moot in October, and then family Christmas and also a wedding in December.

I miss you! I was in Chicago last September and it was a busy weekend but I wish I'd gotten in touch. I would love to see you again sometime!!

[minoanmiss]

Well and thoughtfully written, bb.

. I'm nervous to write this next part because I don't want to get into "I don't like X but" commentary, but whatever okay I'm gonna write this now.

One of the concepts that gets badly stated as "I don't like X but" is "X is not usually to my personal taste [as opposed to being something I feel morally inclined to distance myself from and usually to shame] but the way in which it was presented in this work is something I like because it's thoughtful/goes unexpected places/is excellently in character/some other specific form of good writing".

[sophinisba]

Thank you, friend. I do still have mixed feelings about that kind of comment, though I realized today that a version I like goes more along the lines of "I didn't think I liked X but you just made me realize maybe I do." I wouldn't say that happened to me here wrt interrogation but it did to some extent with sadism –– not that I was against it before but it hadn't affected me so much. :)

[themadlurker]

You can tell me I'm bullshitting but I seriously feel like the way my voice goes soft on the word "Endgame"

Actually that's a really interesting point about the medium, like in contrast to what you were saying about text fics letting you kind of 'hide' spoilery content warnings - only this time you're conveying something with voice and tone that would be lost in pure text!

[sophinisba]

That is interesting yeah! Whereas with the other one I thought the information should be available but I didn't want to explain it out loud so what I ended up doing was just telling people to go refer to the written version. :D

[thingswithwings]

the more I thought about that intro, is that what I do there really parallels what Bruce is doing within the fic, and what other characters do in many of my other favorite kink fics, which is to propose something that might be intense and painful and then give their partner the option of continuing or not

This literally made me gasp. I'm all full of thoughts now about kink and podfic, about consent and listening vs reading, about the trust and partnership between a writer or podficcer and a reader or listener. This is such a beautiful, intense, smart piece of writing. I'm so tender and happy now, too. <3

[sophinisba]

This literally made me gasp.

Oh good! It felt like a bit of a revelation to me after 14 years in fandom but I was afraid it was Widely Known and I'd somehow just missed the memo. :P Like I feel like "the warnings are also enticements" is an idea I've seen going way back, and we've talked a little about reader/listener crushes and seduction in podfic fandom but I'm excited to be thinking about it from this angle also.

I recently started reading a long D/s fic that was posted as a WIP and really chatty chapter notes, some of them along the lines of "this will be where some readers bow out" or "I promise they're both enjoying this" and also "How are we doing, everybody?" I'm not super connecting with it but I appreciate them. And I was thinking wouldn't it be interesting if in the middle of a very intense podfic the reader stopped to say, "Hey, how are you doing? You remember this is just a story, right? Want to take a break?" :D

[thingswithwings]

Yeah, it felt like in this post you put together a bunch of the pieces of things we've talked about for years in a really clear and coalescent way. As evidenced by the posts you referenced! But the way you brought it together was new to me.

I love the idea of stopping with reader's notes throughout the fic! Especially at chapter breaks. That's such a fascinating thought.

[trascendenza]

offering a hand at the beginning of the fic, saying, hey, I know this is scary but I'm gonna get you through it and take care of you, and I think you might enjoy it.

This is so, so interesting and I feel like has actually shifted the way I think about fic. !!!! And I think that's actually a dynamic I have pretty regularly in my close friendships and relationships, where I sometimes take on the role of helping people through scary personal transformation, so also a super interesting insight for me on a personal level. Especially because when I'm reading, I tend to relate more to the sadist's or dominant's POV, hmmm.

Thank you for writing this, I'm going to be thinking about it for awhile!

[sophinisba]

That's so interesting, friend. I think I somehow assumed everybody else was identifying with the sub too (at least if it's written that way), though of course that would be silly.

I am not the person who guides people through difficult times! The most I can sometimes manage is to sit quietly with them.

But I do like making emotional podfics so yeah, I guess there's a bit of that other side in me too!

[yue_ix]

Hi! Here's my audio comment about this: 1 hour and 10 minutes of rambling and feelings. <3

[sophinisba]

I listened to the rest of this while I was washing the dishes tonight. It was so good spending this time with you!

[yue_ix]

It's really fun! I love leaving voicomments.

Here is my follow-up comment about readers freetalk as aftercare. As we said on Twitter, it goes both ways (which is also how I view flesh-space kink aftercare, in my very limited experience). Sometimes when I am devastated by a fanwork my aftercare is to *leave a comment* to the creator or rec the fanwork to my friends. This allows me to ramble about my feelings, process the experience in a different frame of mind, seek human connection, and take self-assertion action. It's not all on the creator, but I deeply appreciate those who do undertake this, however unknowingly.

There's something incredibly comforting in hearing, after a "then end", a bit of silence and then something to the effect of a deep breath being taken and the reader removing the mask of an actor-narrator and revealing their own feelings about the piece.

There's been some podfics that reached deep in me and then we reached the end and there's just... nothing, and I feel like I'm left hanging. In text, this is easier for me to circumvent, because if there's no aftertalk I will go read all the comments others have left, or go chat with someone, or do any action on the text that's right in front of me (or in my hands and on Goodreads, for print). With podfic, the difference is that I very often listen on the go, without wifi. Things that have a potential to hurt or heal me are especially often listened to at night, via earbuds, with all lights closed and mandatory silence in the house. That frame is not conductive to going into another room so as not to wake my bedmate, opening a screen, flinching at the light, trying to find back the page where I found the podfic, hoping there's creators notes or comments on there (which there's often none). It's a very different environment that, for me, requires me to use other tools or manage my mental state differently. So I've been left hanging in the literal dark and while it's not as strongly felt as, say, adrenaline crash of a physical scene, it's not joyful and can lower my overall enjoyment of the piece. (But it's still my problem, not like an etiquette breach.)

Even quick notes such as "Yeah.. so this was... very difficult to read. *soft laughs* I cried so much in the middle I thought I'd have to rerecord it, but in the end it was my best take, so I've kept it. I hope you've enjoyed it too. Let me know how you feel." as incredibly powerful, and gives me tools to understand, re-orient and handle my own emotional state.

Within that frame, the simply comfort of that common "The end. If you've enjoyed this story or my reading of this story, please leave us a comment" chorus feels like an invitation for "wanna cuddle in the comments?" and it's lovely just by its presence, even if I don't take up the offer.

I do not want anyone to change their approach, I just think this is worth discussing while we're on the topic of podfic and kink negotiation corner.

[msilverstar]

so much to think about here!

[sophinisba]

<3