links?

[sophinisba]

It seems that some parts of Merlin fandom that I don't have much contact with are talking about the anon meme and how much it hurts people and fandom. I read this post by hermette and I'm with her in that I find the best thing for my happiness is to ignore what happens there. But I agreed more strongly with the comments by onelittlesleep and lolafeist and a few others saying it's not enough to say "Have fun if that's your thing!" when people are getting attacked and bullied.

I'd like to read more about this, and at hermette's post there seemed to be a lot of references to wank happening elsewhere, only without names or links. I was wondering if that's all in f-locked posts or at the meme itself, or if there are any other public posts where people are discussing things with their own names. If you have any of those links, could you share them with me? I'm interested in this but really, really not interested in visiting the meme or trying to keep up with a discussion there, which would just make me angry and paranoid.

ETA: Some links!
-zephre - Online Bullying: A Public Discussion
-rosemaryandrue - Using Our Grown Up Voices ('ware bullying)
-ninja_orange - repost of previously locked post
-frantic_allonsy - D: QUITTING SMOKING WAS REALLY HARD.
-melusinahp - Don't look at the manatee Ah ha ha! *cries*
-onelittlesleep - Apparently I'm not done

frigg - All these words that we speak casually Yue wanted me to note that this is a personal post rather than a discussion space (these links are really a mix), but I found her ideas to be especially constructive and helpful.

Comments

[torachan]

Someone on my LJ flist posted about it yesterday (probably was the post hermette was responding to), but it's locked.

[sophinisba]

Yeah, it mostly seems to be happening under f-lock, in part because anyone who posts about it will get attacked at the meme as a result.

[ella_bane]

That was me. Right? I can't unlock it now because people commented to it with the knowledge it was locked.

[torachan]

Hee. Yes, you. :)

[sophinisba]

No worries - it totally makes sense to me that you'd want to keep it under f-lock!

[zephre]

I don't go to the mean and don't give a damn what's said on it about me - I would be happy to host a public discussion if you want to have one.

ETA: I don't go, but I have been aware of it peripherally, and I do have a strong opinion about online bullying and its RL outcomes. (In case that wasn't clear, as I haven't really posted anywhere about this.)

[sophinisba]

I don't go there and I usually don't think about it but I am still scared of it ha ha. But yeah, I would love to see more public discussion if you're up for it. It's likely that I would mostly lurk because I'm scared (and uninformed) but I would really enjoy reading that.

[meri]

I am so surprised that something called the mean meme is bullying people. *rolls eyes*

I stopped reading the first anon meme back before it split and became the anon meme and the mean meme (stopped even checking out either right at the split because the rage I could work myself into just reading the thing was not good for me let alone how I felt about fandom). From what I understand the anon meme died and now it's mostly the mean meme. That's about what I know. And that's over a year out of date. So all this, people being scared off fandom & etc., is new.

I do think that hermette's attitude is probably the sanest for most people (and would stop a lot of the stuff right there if most people didn't even engage in anon memes), but bullying is bullshit and should not be tolerated. What I don't know is how to even support people when there is no way I'm going near the toxic sludge that is an anon meme (awesomely moderated KKM doesn't count here, obviously). I won't even know who's being discussed.

And, frankly, if people are worried about troll attacks enough that they're flocking all conversations then bullying is a problem.

[sophinisba]

I did hear some stuff after the fact about people being scared off from the fandom last summer and fall. It seemed like that was more to do with people hating on their fic and not what they look like or on them as people, so maybe that aspect of it has gotten worse lately, I don't know. I feel really weird talking about this when I know so little. I don't want to be like the people who say "I don't read hurt/comfort fic because it's all ableist and exploitative" or "I don't listen to podfic because it seems to me that vocalists don't respect authors' wishes. But yeah, for my own sanity I'm not going to go there to investigate.

What I don't know is how to even support people when there is no way I'm going near the toxic sludge that is an anon meme (awesomely moderated KKM doesn't count here, obviously). I won't even know who's being discussed.

I don't know how to do this either. Did you see frigg's post? All these words that we speak casually

[meri]

Thanks for the link (also I had no idea that frigg was yue_ix as well, the things we learn).

I'm happy to see people with a larger, more active role in the Merlin community taking some steps. I find it intresting how many people are like "yeah, I avoid that place and I've taken three giant steps back away from fandom." I'm starting to wonder if my own personal feelings that I was too sensitive to deal with the Merlin fandom in the larger context (personally because the Gwen and all the general girl haterade hurts me so much) were experienced by the larger group as well. Because the way people are phrasing it sounds really familiar. The personal is political and all that.

[sophinisba]

And see, I almost never see Gwen hate, even at times when a lot of my circle is having trouble because they see so much of it. That's something I've managed by being careful about who I friend and what communities I hang out with, so I think there's a lot to what Hermette and Bina say about shaping your own fandom experience and not letting the haters get you down.

At the same time, those choices have left me somewhat isolated from mainstream Merlin fandom and I probably do miss out on a lot of the fun and news and squee because of that. It's a trade-off, and it bothers me to see people say "If you don't like being hated on, just don't go to the meme!" because that's just not as easy for some people as it is for others.

I should totally be working...

[meri]

I've edited down my fannish interaction so that I don't see Gwen hate on my flist or in my daily activity, but sometimes I'll hop over to a friend of friend and read an episode review or something and BAM some off the cuff Gwen hate. Sadly, this also makes me trigger shy with fic. I love my OT3, but if Gwen/Arthur & Arthur/Merlin is a pairing in the story I'm wary going in knowing how often the feelings that Arthur has for Gwen and vice versa will be handled horribly or will devolve into character bashing. And if I want to read stories I will always have to venture outside my circle. So that's only so much of an answer.

I also wonder if it's not even just '"If you don't like being hated on, just don't go to the meme!" because that's just not as easy for some people as it is for others.' because from what I'm gathering stuff that's said over there is spilling out to other areas of the fandom and having non-anon meme repercussions. So even if someone turned their back, would they perhaps lose friends and then not even know why it was happening? Or face other consequences? Isn't that how bullying works, by never letting the target have a moment's peace?

I think that's why I've really liked what rosemaryandrue said about not being passive about it. That it's the passive 90% that lets the bullying go on. Now I'm left with how I can help a hostile space for bullying in the greater fandom.

[emei]

Okay, total honesty. I read mean_merlin occasionally, and I've been reading the anon memes more or less closely since sometime of the first anon meme. A big part of it is morbid curiousity - I just want to know what is going down. But I have enjoyed it too, I've participated in discussions about fic trends and fandom that stayed civil, I've joined in frank discussions of sex and fantasies and how we relate real life to fandom in that respect (and I really liked getting to talk about that with people who got it, without attatching even a pseud, because I'm shy like that).

I really hope you (and anyone reading this) knows me well enough to know I would never join in any sexist/racist/other -ist och personally hateful and harmful conversations. (If I ever unintentionally do, I want to be called out.) I mostly scroll past the obvious hate and wank threads, because I've found engaging with the haters deeply unproductive and ineffective; it feels like giving them the attention they want.

I think what's kick-started this particular discussion is a) a recent overwhelming increase in pure mindless -ist hate on the meme, and b) that there were photos posted of fangirls having their picture taken with Colin Morgan at the show he's doing, and the these fangirls and their appearance were picked quite viciously.

Not engaging with the hateful trolls on the Internet is one of the basic policies that's keeping me sane - I can read all sorts of things to know what goes down, but I keep a mental distance. Until a certain point. Until it turns out that the emails full of racist hate were in fact sent by a politician currently in office, who should be exposed (this happened at work recently). Until someone is getting badly personally hurt.

I've believed in not engaging with the trolls and trying to do good things elsewhere; writing better, more inclusive and openminded fic, writing meta, trying to never use problematic language (because I do believe language shapes thoughts and behaviours and the world), trying to point out -isms when they need to be pointed out (I could be a lot better at calling things out, I know).

I really don't know what a productive strategy would be, to counter the hate that sometimes runs rampant in places like anon memes. I don't know how to make others feel safe from it. I can't mod mean_merlin, I can't just tell trolls to stop, but I don't feel like I can just ignore it either. Anon bullying is still bullying, racism and sexism on the internet is still racism and sexism.

If anyone wants to keep talking about this and what the best response to this sort of thing is, I guess I could host a discussion.

[sophinisba]

Sweetie I need to go out to work so I'll try to give you a better response tonight but I just wanted to say I totally get what your saying - I haven't enjoyed participating in anon discussions myself but I do see the appeal, and I see the difficulty of not knowing what to do in a situation like this. ♥ ♥

[emei]

Thanks for letting me know right away that you understand. ♥!
I'll probably be asleep by the time you get off work and tomorrow's a really long day, so if I'm late replying to something then that's why.

edit!

[sophinisba]

Totally get what you're saying. That's the second time (at least!) in 24 hours I've made the exact some mistake!

[sophinisba]

Last July when fandomfail_anon was fairly new I started going there and read kind of obsessively and gluttonously for a few weeks. There was some good discussion and I really got a kick out of seeing people express things I've felt for a long time but held back from saying, and also saying things that I didn't agree with but could see where they were coming from, and in some ways the fact that it was all anonymous made it feel less confrontational. Like it wasn't That Girl Who Was Mean The One Time arguing with My Friend, it was just two or more unfamiliar voices, and it was interesting. I may also have left a couple "me too" type comments on unkind things that were said about fans of a certain character or about specific BNFs. I don't feel great about that but I'm not beating myself up about it either.

But then like, there would also be threads about people I know and like, not close friends of mine but friends, saying that these people were bad for fandom and also complaining about their personality and even the way they look. And you can say, sure, scroll by, but I didn't scroll by, I read them carefully and thought about them. I thought, "Should I respond to this and say how much I like this person?" and decided not to, because I didn't want to be the sap, or to appear to be sucking up to the BNF (never mind that nobody would have known that was me idek) and because NOBODY ELSE was sticking up for them, so I got the message that the culture of the meme was not to defend people. And for that matter, engaging with people probably wouldn't have done any good (feeding the trolls) but it still left me feeling sick and guilty.

And around the same time the meme got quieter and less interesting so I went less often and then I stopped, and that's worked out for me.

And I'm like you, for the most part I choose not to engage with the nastier (and sexist and racist etc) parts of fandom and I do what I can in terms of making and promoting fanworks that do things better, and making friends with people whose words and actions are going to have a positive effect on me.

I don't know what the solution is though, like you say, it's not like we're ever going to be able to stop people from being anonymous assholes on the Internet. I can see what hermette and bina are saying about taking away the meme's power by ignoring it, and (even though I disagree with a lot of what she's saying) I can see Srin's point when she says on the LJ side of this post that the current discussion is bringing the meme to more people's attention and the better thing would be to leave it alone. Still, it doesn't feel like enough. I don't know.