vague idea for a fic community

[sophinisba]

I've been toying with the idea of setting up an LJ community for giving and getting constructive feedback on hobbit fics, and I'd like to, well, get some constructive feedback from you all on the idea. The general idea would be something like a writers' workshop -- mind you, not the lame kind of writers' workshop where people try to shoot each other down, but the cool kind where people are genuinely interested in helping each other improve as writers.

I'm not dead set on the idea by any means. I realize there are a lot of ways it could turn ugly and people's feelings could get hurt. The main strategy I've come up with so far for avoiding unpleasantness is "The mod would pay really close attention", but honestly I don't know if I want to take on that kind of commitment or those kinds of conflicts. Anyway, fanfic is something we do for fun, and maybe it would be better to stick to the positive feedback most of us give each other on our fic journals, or suggestions made by the beta reader and in occasional e-mails. I really believe that the main way we get better at writing is by writing (a lot); and I think the kind of negative feedback that inhibits creativity and keeps us from writing (a lot) is really not helpful.

Still, it could be nice to get honest reactions and suggestions from other writers and readers, especially if there's, I don't know, a fic that we're just not satisfied with, or a certain goal we're not sure if we're reaching (does the dialogue work? was the surprise a surprise? is the sex scene sexy?). It would be like the beta process, only with more people, and maybe the other people watching could learn something about the process of writing and revising as well.

By the way, I do realize that lotrfic_crit exists. What I'm envisioning would be different in that it would focus more on hobbits than Elves, and we would only review fics posted to the community by their authors. (There would be no snarking or ranting about random badfic on ff.net.) If you think hijacking that community (say, posting a whole bunch of good quality fics about hobbits there) would be a better strategy than starting up a new one, please say so. And please let me know if there's another community that already does what I want.

Honestly, in general, what do you think? Would you play? Do you have suggestions for keeping it truly constructive and helpful? Do you think people who want concrit would be better off just saying so wherever they already post? Do you think the hobbit writing community is too closely knit and public concrit would create serious conflicts between friends? Would you like to co-mod with me?

Comments

[sophinisba]

Thanks for your input, Carole. I guess I'd like to know why you think that strict guidelines would encourage people to act like children. I'm thinking of making it very clear in the userinfo that people who are posting should really be willing to take criticism, and that people who are reviewing fics should always be thinking in terms of making the fics better, and should also keep the author's feelings in mind. For me, being putting that all out there is part of letting people know they're expected to act like grown-ups.

And apart from that, there are lots of different ways of being grown-ups. Having a feel good place where everybody says nice things is one way and I think it's perfectly legitimate because we all have a nice time and the positive feedback encourages us to write more. Having a community where people attack the problems in other people's stories without saying anything about what's good in them might be helpful for some people but it's not a community I personally would want to participate in. I'd be looking for more of a balance, with a really strong emphasis on how it could be done better. But I don't know how good I'd be at communicating that spirit to all the members.

I'm just thinking out loud (er, in keystrokes) here, so please don't take anything I say too seriously. Thanks again, it's really helpful to hear from people with so much experience in fandom.

Oh, and I've meant to ask you for a while, actually, have you found any difference in the quality of feedback you get since you disabled public comments and asked people to e-mail you instead? I know you avoid the trolls, which is nice, but I've wondered whether the comments you get tend to be less squeeful and more substantive since they're going just to you rather than being posted publicly. Just curious.

[abby-normal.livejournal.com]

I guess I'd like to know why you think that strict guidelines would encourage people to act like children.

Well, again, it's just my opinion, but I think that when one arrives at a place where Rules and Regulations are detailed as though one has stepped into Romper Room, one tends to assume the tendancies of one who belongs in Romper Room. On the other hand, when one arrives at a place where everyone is behaving as an adult and the expectation is implicit, rather than spelled out, one would tend to assume the attitude of decorum already in place. In other words: treat someone like a child and they're likely to act like one; treat someone like an adult and make it clear adult behaviour is expected, and hopefully they won't disappoint you.

...people who are reviewing fics should always be thinking in terms of making the fics better, and should also keep the author's feelings in mind.

See, I agree with the first part of that but not the second. When you're doing honest critique, you can't always keep the feelings of the author in mind. You can say something as tactfully as possible, but you can't always spare someone's feelings if you really want to get a point across. And anyone who is serious about wanting honest critique would be prepared for that. And honestly, I know you have the best of intentions here, but I truly believe that you can't have that feel-good atmosphere you've got in mind in a comm where crit is both serious and respected. And anyone who wants that sort of thing in their crit can't possibly be serious about wanting honest crit.

And again, this is all just my opinion and you could prove me completely wrong and I would honestly and truly love it if that happened. I guess I'm just a little pessimistic because it's been my experience that people who say they want honest critique often end up hating the person who gives it to them -- regardless of how nice you are about it.

...I've wondered whether the comments you get tend to be less squeeful and more substantive since they're going just to you rather than being posted publicly.

That's a good question and yes, I have found that people seem to be more willing open up a dialogue about plot-points and such via email, as opposed to in public comments. I have found feedback to be more thoughtful and yes, even somewhat more critical. I think I've gotten more responses along the lines of I liked this part but this one aspect confused me since I turned off comments. And don't get me wrong -- the volume of comments has decreased dramatically, which is of course disapointing, but the quality has changed and I think that more than makes up for it. Those who make the effort to comment (and why clicking on a link to email is seemingly more effort than clicking on a link to comment I can't figure but that's how it seems to go) are those who care about the story enough to do so and who care enough about me to let me know what they think. It makes each email that much more meaningful and valuable to me. Two of those sort of emails is worth 20 comments of the Hey, cool! variety. (I hope I answered your question because I think I rambled. Meh.)

[sophinisba]

and why clicking on a link to email is seemingly more effort than clicking on a link to comment I can't figure but that's how it seems to go

I can understand that though, especially if it's a fic by someone you don't know or don't know well, just because we're used to e-mails being a little bit like letters and so needing a salutation and sign off and all of that. I wouldn't send an e-mail that just says "Great job, I really enjoyed reading this", although a few e-mails I've sent about fics haven't been much more than that. I'd feel more of a need to introduce myself and all that, and that's part of why I'd been wondering if the quantity of comments dropped off but the quality improved. So your answer was just what I'd wanted, no need to worry about the rambling. (I mean really, it's lj.)

I agree with you that people often say they want an honest reaction but then want that reaction to be "You're the greatest writer ever." I'd like to be able to get away from that but maybe a new comm isn't the answer. Or maybe it is but it should be moderated by someone else, because I'm too much of a softy. :) It could also be that there just aren't that many people interested in getting public concrit, so a new comm isn't a good idea for that reason. I know I could be asking for concrit when I post fic and I haven't been doing that so far. I always intend to but then I figure I'll start when I've got a fic I care less about, or when I'm feeling less fragile, and that never seems to happen! I really am a very indecisive and wishy-washy person! But I enjoy talking these things out. Thanks again.