vague idea for a fic community

[sophinisba]

I've been toying with the idea of setting up an LJ community for giving and getting constructive feedback on hobbit fics, and I'd like to, well, get some constructive feedback from you all on the idea. The general idea would be something like a writers' workshop -- mind you, not the lame kind of writers' workshop where people try to shoot each other down, but the cool kind where people are genuinely interested in helping each other improve as writers.

I'm not dead set on the idea by any means. I realize there are a lot of ways it could turn ugly and people's feelings could get hurt. The main strategy I've come up with so far for avoiding unpleasantness is "The mod would pay really close attention", but honestly I don't know if I want to take on that kind of commitment or those kinds of conflicts. Anyway, fanfic is something we do for fun, and maybe it would be better to stick to the positive feedback most of us give each other on our fic journals, or suggestions made by the beta reader and in occasional e-mails. I really believe that the main way we get better at writing is by writing (a lot); and I think the kind of negative feedback that inhibits creativity and keeps us from writing (a lot) is really not helpful.

Still, it could be nice to get honest reactions and suggestions from other writers and readers, especially if there's, I don't know, a fic that we're just not satisfied with, or a certain goal we're not sure if we're reaching (does the dialogue work? was the surprise a surprise? is the sex scene sexy?). It would be like the beta process, only with more people, and maybe the other people watching could learn something about the process of writing and revising as well.

By the way, I do realize that lotrfic_crit exists. What I'm envisioning would be different in that it would focus more on hobbits than Elves, and we would only review fics posted to the community by their authors. (There would be no snarking or ranting about random badfic on ff.net.) If you think hijacking that community (say, posting a whole bunch of good quality fics about hobbits there) would be a better strategy than starting up a new one, please say so. And please let me know if there's another community that already does what I want.

Honestly, in general, what do you think? Would you play? Do you have suggestions for keeping it truly constructive and helpful? Do you think people who want concrit would be better off just saying so wherever they already post? Do you think the hobbit writing community is too closely knit and public concrit would create serious conflicts between friends? Would you like to co-mod with me?

Comments

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

I think it's an interesting idea...

I think this has been discussed this community before by various folk, although I can't remember the specifics! ;-)

I think the only way to really avoid hurt feelings, etc., would be that it would need to be where the author herself offers up her fic and she would have to be very specific about what sort of criticism she wants. Does she have a very thick skin and can take anything? Does she just want to know about characterization? Does she just want to know if her grammar is okay? Etc. Even...does she just want to know what people LIKE about the fic? (I think that's valid, too...sometimes we all as writers learn from seeing what works in other people's fics)

Or another option is to keep it invite only and just handpick people that you trust and that you know what play nice?

I dunno...just throwing ideas out! :-D

[sophinisba]

That's something I was thinking about too, that it would really help things go smoothly if people posted with a really specific idea of the kind of feedback they'd like to receive, maybe even at the end of the fic put in notes saying, this is what I was trying to communicate and asking if she got it across.

I think doing it invite only would tend to limit it to too few people and maybe too narrow a conception of what "good writing" is, you know what I mean? It would be more fun if we could have diverse opinions and be more open. And on the other hand, gah, crazy difficult to do that and also keep things courteous. *frightened*

Thank you for the ideas! Come back if you think of other stuff.

[semyaza.livejournal.com]

There's an art to giving good concrit and if you have an open community (and I presume that you don't want to face the inevitable wank that will arise if the community is closed) writers who post will have to be prepared to accept and respond to criticisms from anyone who has something to say, even if the criticisms are unhelpful or beside the point. It could be very confusing for some writers, and also time-consuming.

On the other hand, those who don't want public concrit won't join, and those who find it an unsatisfactory experience won't post again. Perhaps you should conduct a poll to find out how many people want public concrit, then take it from there.

[sophinisba]

Maybe I should do a poll. A lot of people responding to this post seem to be saying that they like the idea in theory but that they wouldn't be comfortable posting their own fics to that kind of comm. I don't think I'd want to do it as a closed community. I don't know that there's any way to see how it would go without trying it. I mean, I'm imagining all kinds of conflicts but it could turn out to be a very low-key kind of thing. Just about everybody I friendly with in hobbit fandom is really friendly and polite and respectful, though I realize there are some crazy people out there. Thanks for your thoughts, Sem.

[absolutefiction.livejournal.com]

i think it is a fantastic idea. i have wanted to do that as well. i have been - for like ever- considering a concrit comm, but for elijah. served up any which way. het, gay, in hobbit form, casey, whatevah.

i thought of calling it woodshop, elwood_concrit, or just plain concrit, elijah_wood_concrit_comm????? i dont' know.

and i was thinking of following the exact guidelines of this comm

slashcrit

if you did this, i would definitely post allllll of my stories there.

my idea is that you should get your story beta'd and polished in the exact form you would have it, in order to post to any other comm. but then you post at the concrit comm. if you are lucky enough to get good advice, then you may choose to work on it a bit before posting to the other places you like to post.

anyway. i support your doing this 100 percent. the only suggestion i have is that it be wider than just hobbit fic. only because it would pretty much leave me out, which i fine for all of you's'kids, but i will weep. or maybe start one too...

[sophinisba]

Hey, you!!!!!! *enthusiastic hugs*

Thank you for the link to slashcrit that userinfo looks really close to what I'm thinking of too.

I would be really, really sad to make you weep and also to keep you from participating, especially because it was partly your post to elijahslashdom that got me thinking about this. On the other hand, one does have to limit it somehow ('cause if it's a bunch of different fandoms, like in slashcrit, then it's hard for people to comment on each others' stuff). Hobbits are my main fandom and I know a fair number of people who write about hobbits really don't even like the idea of rps, and I wouldn't want them not to participate because of that. Saying you could just do fic about characters played by Elijah (Casey! Woot!) would just be kinda messy and would also exclude people who want to write about, say, Merry and Pippin (or Rosie and Marigold, etc.) and I wouldn't want that either. You know what I mean? I totally think you should do one for Elijah though. And thank you for your comments, very helpful!

[sophinisba]

PS I think Woodshop is a really cute name.

[notabluemaia.livejournal.com]

I, too, crave a writer's community. I wish for an Inklings of my own, and love to discuss fics, whether it's the concept or the brainstorming, or the process. waymeet meets some of that need for me, in that there are a number of people there I've worked with in various ways these last years, so there's a trust level.

Some time ago there was a Yahoo list, 'Hobbitfics', that was a similar concept. An author might bring a story to the list and request 'beta' or critique from members. I do not remember how it was organized, but it may have been most successful when it matched a writer one on one with betas, rather than the group descending with all their various viewpoints upon one fic.

There may be a distinction, too, between presenting completed fics for critique versus presenting fics upon which the author desires to work further.

My personal experience has been that it is most effective for me to work with betas with whom I've built a collaborative and trusting working relationship as a story takes shape.

It's a very interesting idea, Sophie, and I look forward to hearing more. *Brainstorming is Good*

[sophinisba]

Brainstorming is great, and I so appreciate your thoughts. I think you know I haven't been around in fandom for very long at all (have had the LJ for just over a year) so I don't know much about other attempts people have made to do this.

I'm really glad waymeet exists too and I guess I wrote to semyaza after I got the invite but I didn't tell you that it means a lot to me that you make it "a closed community in form but an open community in spirit" and define your community as a "group of like-minded friends". I think if I were to set up a comm, whether officially open or closed, I would be going for that feeling of companionship. We don't need to agree on everything, but we'd have similar ideas about what the community was for, and people who'd like to be more serious or scathing in their critiques would be free to form their own comm(s). And I'd love, apart from having people post fics, to have discussions about the writing process, and links to inpiring or helpful places on the web that could help people write or write better. Matching writers with beta readers could be a good thing too, and I'm thinking if writers could choose whether to leave their posts open or lock them only to community members.

*still throwing ideas around*

[danachan.livejournal.com]

Am I allowed to be lame and say, if you sign onto chat then we can talk about this more? Because it seems that I am all for being lame. Oh well. I should be on for a long while still. And there's other things I want to talk to you about, besides this possible community. If you're up to it, of course.

[sophinisba]

*feels guilty about signing in to chat rather than answering other people's helpful comments but has no will-power whatsoever*

And you are not lame.

[shirebound]

Over the four years I've been reading and reviewing fanfiction, I tend to only leave positive comments (or no comments at all). I don't feel that folks post to Stories of Arda, etc. to get grammar or plotline advice, but to share something they're excited about. If I read a story and all I can think of is, "Please learn to use commas!" or, "There's nothing of the author here, she's just regurgitating Tolkien almost word for word", I usually don't review at all.

However, if folks post somewhere (like the community you're suggesting) and truly are asking and hoping for honest advice, I'd try to leave honest and helpful with comments.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing where this goes.

[claudia603.livejournal.com]

I fully agree! I never assume that anyone wants a critique unless it is specifically stated somewhere. If there's something major that is really bothering me and I think the author is worth it (really, really good except for this one thing), then I will email her about it (possibly). Although emailing someone you don't know very well with any kind of critique bears its own risk, as I have found out in the past! :-)

I'm very interested to see where this goes, too!

[sophinisba]

I don't feel that folks post to Stories of Arda, etc. to get grammar or plotline advice, but to share something they're excited about.

Yes, I definitely agree. And I wouldn't show up on somebody's livejournal and where they've posted a fic and get on their case for comma usage either, although if I think they write really well and they missed a comma or a word I might e-mail them. But I have seen a few people take constructive criticism really well on their journals and I get a little jealous even as I get scared! But I thought if they were posting to a community whose specific purpose is to do that, then it should be okay. Voluntary, you know?

I'm not sure if this will actually go anywhere, but it is great to hear ideas from so many people.

[blackbird-song.livejournal.com]

I like the idea in principle, but to be honest, I'm a bit sensitive about being criticized in public. That said, if you start such a community, I would be eager to join it, even if I didn't post a story there for a while. Having one that focused more specifically on an area of interest (such as hobbits) might be a really good thing to do.

On the cautionary side (just call me Eeyore), I should say that I do belong to a concrit community that is based primarily in Lotrips fandom, and I've noticed that (as Semyaza implied could happen) there seemed to be a fair bit of criticism that clearly missed the mark and discouraged really good authors of very promising stories from continuing with them. It has not been very active at all.

Now to be Puddleglum for a bit (another of my favourite pessimists), if you take the suggestion offered in another comment and insist on pre-betaed work, I think you'll drive authors away, as it's another hurdle that must be jumped. If you let the authors decide whether to have their work betaed before it's posted in your community, there is a risk of some truly horrific and unreadable stuff appearing, if your community is an open one. A possible compromise would be to insist that authors check their work for spelling and basic grammar before posting, but even that does not always yield reliable results.

Criticism, constructive or otherwise, can make passions run high. I have seen wank back and forth between comments on a given fic as the readers disagreed with each other about what does and does not work. Making rules about this will help, of course, but an open community is hard to regulate when it comes to criticizing work that is close to hearts. The concrit community to which I belong is a closed one, where one must apply for membership. Wank always happens with those sorts of things, but I think there might be less of it in a community that allowed applications, rather than one that was by invitation only. (That must have been my stab at being Marvin the Paranoid Android. It's been raining here...)

If you do decide to do this, and could use a helper, please feel free to let me know. I may not post many stories in such a community, due to my vain cowardice, but I do support fostering the art of polite and constructive criticism, and will be happy to put my money where my mouth is.

Good luck no matter what you decide to do!

Catherine

[sophinisba]

Thank you so much for your thoughts, including the healthy dose of pessimism. Would you mind letting me know which rps comm had the way off base criticisms? I'm interested in seeing what other people have tried. I follow elijahslashdom, a comm that encourages concrit, and it seems like they do all right, though there isn't a ton of traffic there these days. Most of the authors who've received concrit there have been really gracious about it. But it could just seem friendlier to me because I'm looking at it as an outsider and not thinking of posting there. Maybe if I were writing in that fandom I would find the group cliquish, and as it is I'm just a reader who likes that the fic there is usually good quality stuff.

I like the compromises you suggest, like saying we don't insist on a beta reader but maybe we encourage you to use one and at the very least run a spell check. And I think the kind of community where you apply could work. I'd tend to be pretty liberal about letting people in, unless they look like sockpuppet journals or they're obviously fond of putting other people down. I know there are some mean people who have a lot of influence but I really don't think their numbers are very large or that they'd be particularly interested in joining a community with me and my friends, you know? I would want it to be possible for a group of friendly people to set the tone and let new people who want to join follow that model, but maybe it would get out of control, I really don't know.

If people submitted really horrible fic, would it be very hypocritical of us just to ignore them?

Thank you so much for offering to help! I have a good deal of vain cowardice too but I do think this might be worth a try. I always really appreciate your comments in fandom discussion (sometimes I even get jealous of how smart and articulate you are!) and I think we'd get along well and have similar ideas of how we would want things to go.

[baranduin.livejournal.com]

good luck to you! I set up something a while back (I think it's called homely_house) and we got some people signed up, but honestly, I never had enough energy to see it through and really get it started. I think it would have taken a lot of work.

From the way you're describing it, I'd say go for a closed invite-only community. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're looking for a fairly comfortable environment. I can't see that something like lotrfic_crit would suit your needs but then I'm quite cynical about that one as I see it as a mental masturbation playground for a few people :-) And I could be completely wrong about that, I am about many things ...

The reason I say 'invite-only' is not to exclude people but to keep it to a smallish size. Real-life writing groups tend not to be large, I believe. And the reason I say 'closed' is to give people privacy. Now, if your group decides they want to be open to all kinds of crit, keep it open. But I think if you want a comfortable workshop environment, a layer of privacy might be the way to go.

Just my .02 :-)

[mariole.livejournal.com]

Baranduin does have a point about size. I've participated in probably over 20 RL critique groups--I've lost count. I've seen plenty of types of dysfunction, and I'm sure there's plenty more. The majority of these CGs are failures, where people are more interested in complaining about something or trying to appear clever at the writer's expense than honestly trying to help. Also, critique ability will vary tremendously. You'll get someone who can only do commas-- that's fine, that's where they're at. Then someone else will be good at motivation and plot, etc.

But if you get a CG that works, it's really helpful (_I_ think, which is why I keep seeking them out until I find one that works). I've been in successful groups with 22 members and with 5 members. I think the most common number is 10, but that can get pretty difficult to manage if everybody "brings". Concrit takes time. I personally prefer no more than 8 members, but this is a RL workshop where you sit around and discuss 4-7 ms in an evening.

What the Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers does is spin off numerous CGs so each group has 10-12 authors in it. Then you don't get overwhelmed with ms but you also have enough opinions to see what is generally working or not. I don't have any experience with online groups, so you'll have to take this with a grain of salt. Cheers!

[sophinisba]

I don't know, I described it as writer workshop-like but I was imagining an open comm or possibly the kind where you apply for membership but I let anybody in unless they're very mysterious or mean. I see the value of a really intimate writing critique group but I also think that could get a little claustrophobic to me. A lot of expectation from friends that other friends will review and serious disappointment if they're very critical. My thought was that I could keep it open but be really specific in rules and such about what kind of thing we're looking for. And people could lock posts to the community if they wanted but it would still be relatively open.

I was excited when I came across lotrfic_crit but I found I couldn't handle having the kind of snark that comes up there sitting at the top of my f-list. I can go there from time to time and look for the interesting discussions but between the snobbishness and the ranting and the lack of talk about hobbits there isn't all that much there for me.

Still, most of the people I've run into in hobbit fandom are reasonably polite and mature. Maybe I'm being naive but I want to think that we could work something out.

[harukameko.livejournal.com]

I think this is a great idea. And I am sure most writers would tell you that they would like the opportunity to get better if they had the chance. I agree with many of the suggestions others have already stated, plus perhaps it may allow new readers to discover our writing. :-)

[sophinisba]

It's just that so many of the suggestions other people have made contradict each other. :D I still think it might work though. Good to know you're interested.

[abby-normal.livejournal.com]

You know, I agree with most of what everyone else has said. But it makes me crazy that so much caution seems necessary.

Here's the thing: people need to be grownups. If you post something in a 'crit' community and ask for crit, you have to expect to get some. I've done beta before (lots of it, actually) and it's been my experience that mostly what people want when they ask you for your honest opinion is for you to say Yes! This was fabulous and I wouldn't change a thing! Sure, they want your honest opinion but they want your honest opinion to be that they are awsomely talented.

Which I know is somewhat beside the point but I think the more strict guidelines placed on any of this, the more people are going to act like children. It's the whole 'dumbing down' thing and I'd really love to see something where people are supposed to strive to work up to their potential, rather than slide down to the lowest common denominator.

I think a mod needs to be prepared to make a 'no wank' rule and boot people who abuse it but to be able to tell the difference between critique and wank. And the same with an author who posts a fic and asks for that critique. If someone doesn't know who they should be listening to, then they should sit back and watch and learn first. And I hate to say it but if someone lets another person they don't even know or respect talk them into abandoning something that's good and that they love, they deserve to slink off into proverbial sunset.

Writing is an art and a skill and a continuous learning process; by its nature, it's not easy and we shouldn't be trying to make it so, else we risk creating lazy authors and possibly stunting their creative growth. I know this sounds a little cold and high-handed but it's something I firmly believe. People should have to work for what they want, they should have to work at being better. And wending through the critique phase of writing shouldn't be any easier than the writing itself. In fact, it should be more difficult. You have to know who to trust and who to take with a grain of salt; which story points are worth defending and which aren't fulfilling their purpose. And you have to be intelligent enough to know who is trying to help you and who is just talking out their arse.

All of these things must be learned and a comm like what you're talking about can help people learn. You just need to be prepared to take some crap from those who get their feelings hurt because they're told (probably correctly) that they're not awesomely talented. You can't make it a 'feel good' type of place and you have to be prepared to tell people that's not what it's for.

Yes, I would like to see a comm like this but I would like to see it done in such a fashion that people know they are expected to act like mature individuals. Anything else would be a useless waste of time for all involved.

Of course, that's just my opinion; I could be wrong. ;)

[sophinisba]

Thanks for your input, Carole. I guess I'd like to know why you think that strict guidelines would encourage people to act like children. I'm thinking of making it very clear in the userinfo that people who are posting should really be willing to take criticism, and that people who are reviewing fics should always be thinking in terms of making the fics better, and should also keep the author's feelings in mind. For me, being putting that all out there is part of letting people know they're expected to act like grown-ups.

And apart from that, there are lots of different ways of being grown-ups. Having a feel good place where everybody says nice things is one way and I think it's perfectly legitimate because we all have a nice time and the positive feedback encourages us to write more. Having a community where people attack the problems in other people's stories without saying anything about what's good in them might be helpful for some people but it's not a community I personally would want to participate in. I'd be looking for more of a balance, with a really strong emphasis on how it could be done better. But I don't know how good I'd be at communicating that spirit to all the members.

I'm just thinking out loud (er, in keystrokes) here, so please don't take anything I say too seriously. Thanks again, it's really helpful to hear from people with so much experience in fandom.

Oh, and I've meant to ask you for a while, actually, have you found any difference in the quality of feedback you get since you disabled public comments and asked people to e-mail you instead? I know you avoid the trolls, which is nice, but I've wondered whether the comments you get tend to be less squeeful and more substantive since they're going just to you rather than being posted publicly. Just curious.

[mariole.livejournal.com]

Hi, Sophi. I think it would be a fine idea, although I'm not interested myself. I have so many writing commitments and a RL writing critique group, which I love. Critiquing takes time, and I just wouldn't want to put in the time investment. Sorry! I hope it works out, though. I really do think they can improve a person's writing. You don't have to believe what the person says is wrong, just listen for what doesn't seem to be working. Good luck!

[sophinisba]

Thank you Mariole! I really think it could be helpful too, but I do worry about doing it wrong and having things get out of control. It's great getting advice from so many people with different experiences.

[lilybaggins.livejournal.com]

I will probably second Mariole. I'd join, but I've already got so little spare time that I probably should spend it actually writing (or else I'll never improve, lol)! Still, it's a great idea, I think.

[sophinisba]

Yes, writing should definitely be a higher priority than finding out what people think is wrong with your writing. Heck, maybe I should put my time into writing too rather than try to figure this out. >:( Thanks for your support anyway. *hugs*